Smoozing a Rothchild? That's not what's happening in this letter. First, the letter was sent to Baron Hirsh, with a copy to Rothchild. Russell's interest in what they were doing, settling jews in palistine, was limited to his beliefs in the restoration of the Jews. Also, I'd wager you really don't know anything about the Rothschilds except what you've read on conspiracy sites.
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
sorry about the crazy formatting on the previous post. I have no clue what happened, and it wont let me fix it.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
That's not a reference to money sent to Russell. That's a reference to the jewish settlements sponsored by Hirsh and Rothschild. Russell did not sponsor those settlements. No money went to Russell.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
I suppose that this issue makes me cranky because I am by profession an educator and historian. I have a strong interest in Watchtower history. I'm a fan of Schulz and de Vienne's work in this area. Maybe you've read their book Nelson Barbour, the Millennium's Forgotten Prophet. They write well documented, readable history. Most of why you will find on the internet is not of that quality. For instance there is an essay claiming to be the best short history of the Watch Tower. It is four-fifths inaccurate. To qualify as "history" the research should be reproducible. You should be able to find the original source, consult it, and see in it what the writer saw. One cannot do that with most of what is on the internet, EVEN if it is footnoted. A footnote does not make something scholarly.
When I was much younger than now the book None Dare Call it Treason was published. It caused a ripple through the student body where I taught. It was full of footnotes. I took a copy to our university library and went checking. The footnotes were faked. Beware of footnotes. Still you can tell much from the nature of footnotes an author uses. I can tell a huge amount about the quality of a student's research by the material he cites.
I have in manuscript form the nearly finished chapter one of Schulz and de Vienne's next book. This chapter as it stands is fifty-two single spaced pages long and has 234 footnotes. Most of those footnotes are from original sources. I will append some examples taken from their work shortly. They point to the location of rare documents. If a book is remarkably rare, they tell you where they found it. I've spent hours fact checking this manuscript. I ended up with six questions which I sent to Mr. Schulz and Dr. de Vienne. I got prompt answers with full explanations. They re-wrote two footnotes to clarify the points I raised. THIS is what good (in this case Great) historical research is like.
Here are some of the footnotes extracted from the first seven pages of their manuscript:
To the Honorable Judges of the Court of Common Pleas in the Matter of Joseph L. Russell, dated October 26, 1846, found in Allegheny County Archives. A passenger list exists for a Joseph Russell of the right age dated 30 May 1839. That Joseph entered through Boston and is listed as a laborer. He departed from Liverpool on the ship Massasolt, traveling alone. There is, however, no way to connect that Joseph with Joseph Lytle Russell.
Crew Lists of Vessels Arriving at Boston, National Archives Microfil T938, Roll M277-12.
United States Census: 1840. Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania, Roll 441, page 477. U. S. Naturalization Indexes 1791-1992.
Death of Thomas Birney, Pittsburgh Press, January 17, 1899.
Obituary: Charles T. Russell, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Post, December 27, 1874. His death record says he died of chronic hepatitis.
Death of Thomas Birney, Pittsburgh Press, January 17, 1899. The obituary misnames his partner as James R. Woodwell. The membership list for St. John’s Lodge is found in An Address Delivered at the Request of St. John’s Lodge, no. 219, F. & A.M. at the 444th Stated Meeting, April 12th, 1883, on the History of the Lodge, and the Establishment of Freemasonry in Pittsburgh. Thomas Birney’s name appears in the membership list on page 112. No Russells find a place on the list, nor do they receive other mention.
Historical and Biographical Annals of Columbia and Montour Counties, Pennsylvania, J. H. Beers & Co., Chicago, 1915, volume 1, page 339
Centenary Memorial of the Planting and Growth of Presbyterianism in Western Pennsylvania, 1876, page 141.
Encyclopedia of Genealogy and Biography of the State of Pennsylvania, Lewis Publishing, New York, 1904, volume 1, pages 427-428.
The Presbyterian Church Throughout the World, De Witt C. Lent & Co, New York, 1874, pages 709-710.
Indenture dated September 4, 1855, on file in Allegheny County archives.
Thurston’s Directory of Pittsburgh and Allegheny City: 1860-1861, page 273.
Robert Speel and Florence Cook: Relatives of Charles Taze Russell, Typescript manuscript. No date.
Died, Pittsburgh Dispatch, January 26, 1861.
See W. A. Lare and W. M. Hartzell: The Rebellion Record of Allegheny County, from April, 1861 to October, 1862: Containing the Narrative of the Organization of Companies and Regiments, the Pecuniary aid Tendered by Corporations and Individuals; the History of the Home Guards; the Operation of the Draft and the list of Exempts, Pittsburgh, 1862.
Ann Eliza’s will was filed with Franklin County, Iowa, on June 7, 1862. The filing is indexed as “Copy of Will,” and Ann Eliza Russell is listed as Grantor, Thomas Birney as Grantee. The earliest ownership record for the property in question (NE ¼ of Section 8 Township 91 Range 20, Reeve Township, Franklin County, Iowa.) is in Thomas Birney’s name. The record says he acquired the property from the Tax List. We are not absolutely certain that the original purchaser was Ann’s brother. It may have been her father. We simply do not know. Earlier records do not exist. There is no date on the original Birney purchase. Historical circumstances point to a purchase date of after 1851. Reeve Township was first surveyed that year. More likely, we’re looking at a date nearer to 1855 when the county divisions were first called “Townships.” – see Franklin County Historical Society Quarterly Newsletter, March 2009.
C. T. Russell: Joseph L. Russell Deceased, Zion’s Watch Tower, January 1, 1898, pages 4-5.
L. Jones [editor]: What Pastor Russell Said: His Answers to Hundreds of Questions, pages 40, 50, 158.
C. T. Russell: Take No Thought for Tomorrow, Zion’s Watch Tower, August 1886, page 5.
If the material you read on the Internet does not document its assertions with original source material of a similar nature, at the very least you should be cautious. Never take a writer's word for it. Never trust a footnote. Any fool or crook can write one. Assume some personal responsibility for what goes into your mind. Check. And do not read into something what is not there, just because you wish it to be there.
I'm sorry, but I can't post Schulz and de Vienne's work here. They own the blog I mentioned above. It's by invitation only. Contact one of them and ask about reading it, if you're that curious. They take a limited number of readers and readership rules are strict. The look for those who though they may not be experts in the field have a deep interest and who may be able to further their research.
I have issues with Watchtower governance and practice, but I would have fewer issues if the Society had produced a detail, forthright and accurate history, something like what Schulz and his partner write.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
"Thank You sooooooooooooooo much. According to this letter, Russell did accept money from Baron Rothschild. "
WHERE in this letter does it say THAT?
http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php?topic=14045.msg218905#msg218905
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
redvip,
All of that is wild speculation with no basis in FACT. The Russells were a protestant Irish family from Londonderry, Ireland. They were not German. Russell had no connection to Skull and Bones. Russell's uncle's will details the Londonderry connection, and at the time of the uncle's death there were still relations living in Derry. Russell was educated in Grant School in Pittsburgh, graduating from the Common School system then in use at the end of the seventh-grade. He had further education from a system of tutors sponsored by the YMCA who provided advanced courses for young men. All of this can be documented from available records.
Nothing of the dreck you seem to believe can be proven except in the demented mind of one man who was convicted in Federal court for his unsavory conduct. (And unlike Rutherford, never "exonerated.") Show us the original records.
C. T. Russell was not a Mason. Membership records for the Pittsburgh area lodges still exist. Neither his nor his father's name appears on any of them. His mother's brother was a Mason, but Russell was not.
Russell contributed far more than Conley. More than twice as much. Conley stopped contributing in 1882. By that year he was off into the Faith Cure movement and diverting his gifts to further Faith Cure Homes.
Sometimes I wonder if a tendency toward gullibility isn't what drew some of us to the Witnesses. Certainly having left them didn't cure some of us of the problem.
Among those records which still exist are the citizenship records for J. L. Russell, a ship's list for his immigration, newspaper articles detailing Russell and related family matters, descriptions of Grant School, Presbyterian church records, an article detailing Russell's connection to "private tutors" with a supplementary article describing the YMCA education program.
Present us with ONE record that proves Russell was a Mason or of German descent. It is time to stop being silly.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
David Icke hardly qualifies as a "historian."
Russell wrote an open letter to one of the Rothchilds. They did not fund him. He didn't bother to reply. Would you have? The letter can be found in The Watch Tower reprints or by a search of any of the digitalized Watch Tower libraries put out by Bible Students.
Financial reports exist for the early 1880s and are found in the early issues of Zion's Watch Tower. Funding came from the Russells, Conley, the Smiths, A. D. Jones and some small donors. In the mid 1880s the tract society accounts were in arrears. Russell and his father sold property in Florida (1884-1885) to help pay the account current.
It is wrong to say that Conley provided all the money. A photo of the original contribution amounts from the 1881 document is on the towerhistory blog, an invitation only blog run by two historians (one a Witness) with academic credentials and ethics that Icke lacks. It shows initial contributions of $7000 from C. T. Russell, 2000 from A. D. Jones, 4000 from Conley, and 1000 from J. L. Russell. No amount is shown from the Smiths because J. F. Smith, one of the first dirctors of the PA corporation, did not become active until 1883. He was a well-known "merchant tailor." He remained in association with Russell until 1892.
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Just finished reading 'The Crucible'
by sd-7 inyou know, by arthur miller?
well, it's a big deal for me because when i was in school i was assigned to read it, and my mom put a stop to it, going so far as to write a note to the teacher explaining that i couldn't read it because it had witchcraft in it.
there was a bit of back and forth with the teacher over that.
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Old Goat
John Proctor is my 10th great grandfather. Miller's play is not good history, but it is a great play.
I can't imagine any Witnesses (except the totally clueless) objecting to it. I've assigned it to my students, even back in my Loyal Elder days.
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Are JW's really not allowed to view apostate material?
by Joey Jo-Jo inon youtube there is this man who recorded is judicial commitee, the point i am making is that the elders viewed his material on youtube as stated on the recording.. my question his are elders allowed to view apostate material but not non-elders?
when did this happen?
!.
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Old Goat
The biggest collection of anti- and apostate material I've ever seen in one place is in the Writing Department Library/Archives in Brooklyn. Think about that. You can't read it. They can. They have the spiritual where-with-all to withstand it. You don't. They have a mind that can handle it; they don't think you do.
They're next to God. You ain't, bub.
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Rutherford's death and "the evil servant"
by Old Goat ini became a witness a few years after rutherford died, so i know little about the events right after his death.
i found this in the march 1942 informant:.
"the effort of the demons is to scatter the lords sheep and to wean and lure them away from the lords theocratic organization and thereby cause them to fail of performance in the lords strange work.
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Old Goat
Dear "Found",
I'm not upset, and I'm sure your intentions were pure.
There must be some Russellites on here who can document this from the other side. No?